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repeated doses of estrumate to help mare with no edema

Use of exogenous hormones in the mare to induce estrus; maintain or end pregnancy; and also the use of hormones to stimulate or quieten stallions.

Moderator: Jos

repeated doses of estrumate to help mare with no edema

Postby oakleaf218 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:56 pm

Hi Jos,

I have been inseminating my own mares for 7 years now after taking one of your seminars in Pennsylvania. I would appreciate your input on several mares I have that are bringing up 38 to 40 mm follicles with no edema whatsoever. Two of these mares are maidens(3 years old) and the other is 18 years old and has only had one foal ( 3 years ago). The older mare and one of the maidens automatically show outward signs of heat everytime they see a stallion with one going so far as to allow a stallion to mount, but not penetrate. I had her ultrasounded the next day and was surprised to learn that she was not in season, no edema, but there was a CL present.

We gave her estrumate to bring her back in season. About 8 days after the estrumate, she had a 40 mm follicle with no edema. I had two extra doses of semen from my stallion's collection, so my vet advised to breed the mares and give HCG. Today, ultrasound has revealed that they are not in foal (17 days post breeding) and no signs of edema in the uterus. Both have a CL.

Is there a protocol for using repeated doses of estrumate or lutalyse to bring a mare into season and then repeat the dose every other day to help maintain edema as the follicle grows? I did this on the older mare three years ago and was able to get her pregnant. I am using a different vet now and my present vet does not know the 'half dose' protocol, and is saying that I can give the mares a full dose of estrumate every other day? Will this hurt the mares at all? As I recall when I used the protocol a fews years ago, I gave a full does to bring the mare into season and a half dose every other day until the mares achieves a breedable follicle with good edema. Do you think this will work? Is there anything else you can recommend for mares that don't get any edema, but show heat eveytime they meet a stallion?

The third mare in this group is a maiden also. I have never seen her display any outward signs of heat. Last ultrasound, she had a 40 mm follicle, no edema and the follicle looked like it had a small round cyst inside of it. My vet advised not to breed her and give HCG to get rid of the cystic follicle. I am planning to give her estrumate this week to bring her in season also. I am hoping you have some suggestions about this lack of edema with large follicles in three of my mares. We follow our mares closely with ultrasound, but I have always heard that no edema means no pregnancy. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Kindest Regards,

Autumn
oakleaf218
Nursing Foal
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: repeated doses of estrumate to help mare with no edema

Postby Jos » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:18 pm

Bear in mind that - in particular at this time of the year, the height of the breeding season - mares can and do produce mid-cycle follicles which can even ovulate. With these mid-cycle follicles there will be no edema. Consequently, the first thing that comes to my mind is that you are potentially dealing with mid-cycle follicles, which should not be bred upon.

Rather than using repeated doses of PGF2α - which at the full dose is certainly going to be unpleasant for the mare - a better option would be to use P&E, which can be started anywhere in the mare's cycle (as long as she is cycling) and will produce a predictable onset of estrus and ovulation in >90% of cases. Note that BET Pharmacy have a a single-dose biorelease version now, or you can use their biorelease altrenogest to the same effect.
We're always happy to try and help, but don't forget to check the articles section
of the website too, which has a search engine to help you look for answers!
:)
User avatar
Jos
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Re: repeated doses of estrumate to help mare with no edema

Postby oakleaf218 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:54 pm

Thank you Jos,

If what we are observing are mid-cycle ovulations, then are you saying that these mares are actually getting great edema and having a good ovulation somewhere during the 14 to 17 day window between when we don't find a pregnancy from the mid-cycle ovulation and then either induce estrus or wait for it to naturally occur? I have observed two of these mares about seven days after what you are calling a mid cycle ovulation with their tails up, but not showing great signs of estrus. My intial reaction was that they looked like they may be in estrus, but I didn't bother to ultrasound again, because I assumed they had already ovulated a week before.

Is mid-cycle ovulation very common this time of year or does it suggest that my mares are hormonally deficient? Does the age of the mare have any bearing on her tendency to have a mid-cycle ovulation? In the case of my three year old maiden mares, does this mid-cycle ovulation become a regular pattern in their future broodmare careers? Is the tendency to have mid-cycle ovulation hereditary? Two of the mares I described to you are mother and daughter. If I am able to get them in foal this year, Will they always require P &E? I remember your discussion of P &E when I took your course, so I will definitely contact the pharmacy you recommend and share the link to the article your provided with my vet.

I will write again to let you know how this matter resolves. Thanks very much for taking the time to answer my questions,

Kindest Regards,

Autumn
oakleaf218
Nursing Foal
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: repeated doses of estrumate to help mare with no edema

Postby Jos » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:05 pm

are you saying that these mares are actually getting great edema and having a good ovulation somewhere during the 14 to 17 day window between when we don't find a pregnancy from the mid-cycle ovulation and then either induce estrus or wait for it to naturally occur?


I guess the most accurate interpretation on what I am saying is "because we're not checking the mares at other times, we don't know if these are mid-cycle follicles and that the mares are ovulating at a different point in their overall cycle". The bottom line is that ultrasounding and finding a big follicle with no edema present and saying "how come these mares don't have edema when they're in estrus" is not an accurate question without absolutely confirming that the mares are indeed in estrus, which one would do by ultrasounding multiple times during the course of a 3-week "cycle" period. The fact that you may be seeing flirtatious behavior at another time frame supports the hypothesis that these could be mid-cycle follicles, but without more in-depth evaluation, we cannot say anything for certain!

Mid-cycle follicles occur as a result of a bi-phasic action of FSH. This dual-wave per-cycle effect is perfectly normal and is particularly common in the height of the of the breeding season. It is not related to any category or age of mare.

I suggested P&E as a practical management tool for you, given that ultrasound evaluations are not being done on weekly (or more often) basis. P&E is not something that I am suggesting to "treat" the mares "problem" with! :) The alternative is to manage the mares tighter by ultrasounding more often.
We're always happy to try and help, but don't forget to check the articles section
of the website too, which has a search engine to help you look for answers!
:)
User avatar
Jos
Senior Stallion or Mare
 
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:11 am


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